“Tiny Orbo Replication 3″ design details

As it stands, here's the design details for the "Tiny Orbo Replication 3."

The disc will be made of 9mil thick transparent hard plastic, and about 1" OD. It will have two of these plastic disc, where the magnets will be encased inside / in-between both plastic discs to significantly reduce air drag.

~~It will use have either 8 or 16 N35 NdFeB magnets that are 6mm OD and 1.5mm thick.~~ I will use N52 magnets, 5mm square by 1mm thick. I would recommend the strongest NdFeB magnets you can get; e.g., N52.

It will have 16 Metglas MAGAMP cores, MP1303P4AS, two on each side of the disc such that there will be two toroids per magnet. The windings will be 26 36 AWG copper magnetic wire. ~~Either 2 or 3~~ Multiple layers. I'll make a bundle of 36 AWG copper wire consisting of numerous strands to decrease the amount of time required to wind each toroid. All of the strands will most likely be connected in parallel. Connecting them in-series would require too much voltage.

It will use a tiny ceramic bearing bought from bocabearings.com, part number MR681XC, 1.5mm ID, 4mm OD, 1.2mm wide.

The plastic discs will slip on the bearing, and will be lightly glued in a few very tiny spots to keep it from sliding sideways. The "Tiny Orbo Replication 3" will be situated like a ferris wheel -->

Eventually it might have a thin outer rim to further reduce air drag.

The circuit used for the "Tiny Orbo Replication 3" will be the following, except temporarily I'll be using a custom Metglas transformer instead of the LTC4446.

Normally I've used a Hall effect switch for the timing, but that may not be possible if all of the magnets are covered by toroids at TDC. If it takes that many toroids to make this self-run, then I'll have to use either a pick-up coil of sorts or an optical switch.

There will be pickup coils, at least two, one for each capacitor to make a self-runner.

Share and Enjoy:

teslaalset

March 10th, 2010 at 12:42 am · Reply

Hi Paul, thanks for sharing details.

Regarding the toroid windings: you mentioned 2 or 3 layers.
I did some measurements on single and dual layer windings and found that best performance is a dual layer winding that is wound back and forth, so i.e. after one layer clockwise continue to wind the next layer counter-clockwise. In this way you compensate the single tangential winding you get with one layer. If you use toroids that have non compensated layers of windings the polarity of the magnets might be important, depending on their orientation towards the toroids.

By the way, I hooked up my Rigol to my PC, using LabView.
Oh man, a whole new bunch of features en possibilities open up. This is absolutely great stuff to work with comparing to my old Cathode Ray Oscilloscope.

EnergyMover

March 10th, 2010 at 5:28 am · Reply

Hi teslaalset,

How did you test for results? Sounds interesting. Are you referring to BEMF & CEMF? I think Steorn is making far far too much of a big deal about balancing the toroid to get lowest BEMF & CEMF. The BEMF & CEMF will be small compared to the applied voltage even in a poorly wound toroid, at least in my “Tiny Orbo Replications.” I don’t see a few dozen millivolts as being a problem compared to 12 volts. In fact, in one of Steorn’s video’s you can see their toroid is far from being balanced. Max even commented on this. So it seems to me that even Steorn is not to concerned about BEMF & CEMF. If anything, Steorn might be deliberately winding the toroids to get an extra boost from the magnet to give it *ZERO* CEMF. Maybe Steorn would think that’s a huge breakthrough, but IMO there’s nothing there of interest because that would only take mechanical energy to reduce CEMF. In the end, what’s very important is reducing the losses such as electrical wire resistance and mechanical friction. Also, keeping a relatively good distance between the magnet and toroid, since according to the math, that’s where the excess energy comes from. If the magnet gets close to the toroid, you end up with a lot of power & motor torque, but very little excess energy, and a more conventional motor. You can find the math in one of my blogs here. Notice how Steorn’s Orbo magnets are relatively far apart from the toroids.

Teslaalset
March 10th, 2010 at 10:14 am · Reply
Paul, my findings on winding effect are based on following measurements:
I used a setup as I posted in Fig 3 at OU.com:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.2835
So, a coil with one layer and a ring magnet above.
When measuring the optimum inductance, I noticed it makes a significant difference how the polarity orientation of the ring magnet is arranged.
You would expect an identical inductance, no matter what the orientation of the magnet is, North facing down or South facing down.
Not so. Now, I first thought it would be an asymmetric magnet with different North pole strength compaired to the South pole strength. But that is complete nonsense.
I did a double check by reversing the polarity of the coil to the driving circuit. In that case the optimum coil value was the other way around related to the pole orientation of the magnet ring.
In my view there is an other effect that causes this.
A one layer wounded coil also contains a hidden feature: a single winding parallel to the O-shape of the toroid. This winding also picks up magnetic field.
Now if you wind a toroid with an even number of windings, winding it ‘zig zag’ instead of a continued winding (per layer) there is no effect of this hidden coil parallel to the O-shape.
EnergyMover
March 10th, 2010 at 10:39 am · Reply
Okay, figure 1, the delayed current increase you find without the magnet is because the core is in ultra high permeability mode. It may not seem like it, but the current is increasing. It’s increasing at such a small rate you can’t tell, because of ultra high permeability. So it’s not really a delay. It’s just the core is initially in ultra high permeability, then it suddenly changes to low permeability when it gets far into the saturation curve. These Metglas MAGAMP cores respond almost instantly.
Figure 2 you say the current delay is even longer, but that’s the opposite of what I’ve seen in scope measurements. When the magnet is that close to toroid as shown in your photo, the current should immediately shoot up.
- Teslaalset
  March 10th, 2010 at 11:17 am · Reply
  Paul,
  I can change my findings. They are what they are.
  The only explanation that I have is that an ordinary B-H curves applies in a 2-dimensional plain. In this case this plain is bended as a circle, or better a cylinder where the dipoles follow the surface of the cylinder.
  But in fact the core material is in a 3 dimensional B-H model.
  The magnet causes the dipoles to direct in that 3rd dimension.
  My explanation for Figure 1 is that there is a normal B-H curve being followed, including the reminent magnetized situation where the current has dropped to zero. So, in pulsed situation the coil is never reaching the steep vertical slope of the B-H curve. Only the top side of the curve is followed.
  The magnet prevents the reminent magnitized situation, because it causes the dipoles to be directed in the Z-direction of the normal 2D B-H curve.
  Any thoughts on this?
  - EnergyMover
    March 10th, 2010 at 11:54 am · Reply
    It seems the current in your measurements is 0.1 amps peak. That amount of current seems very low for 80 turns, especially on that size of core. If you ever get around to doing it again, try 0.5 amp. And also try 1 amp. It’s difficult for me to convert my measurements to your size of core, but I’m guesstimating that your core needs 2 to 4 times more current than my core. Both of my “Tiny Orbo Replication” version 1 & 2 required a whole lot more current than 0.1 amps before the toroid even entered into the region of doing measurable work. It is like turning a switch on. You should see the difference in the LR curve, where it should suddenly rise. Also the voltage across the inductor in your experiments is almost zero during the pulse. So the circuit resistance needs to be decreased by a considerable amount. Don’t get me wrong. You can tell the core behavior by current alone, but it will be difficult for you to tell when the current sudden rise occurs until the toroid resistance is always significantly higher than circuit resistance. My circuit was ~ 50mOhm to 100mOhm, and the current was at least 0.8 amps.
    I hope that helps a bit.
    - Teslaalset
      March 10th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
      Ok, good to know your current values.
      I used 100 mA max because that matches 2 times Hc with that amount of turns. I’ll try the higher current values.
      Thanks.
EnergyMover
March 10th, 2010 at 10:50 am · Reply
Another thought is that maybe you’re only looking for a change in current, but that could be a problem since the current should shoot up immediately in figure 2, and your scope might not be able to see the rise. A good way to compare is to see how long it takes the current to reach a certain level. Figure 2 should take less time.
EnergyMover
March 10th, 2010 at 10:56 am · Reply
Your ring magnet is magnetized through the thickness part, right?
- Teslaalset
  March 10th, 2010 at 11:19 am · Reply
  Yes, through the thickness part.

March 10th, 2010 at 5:42 am · Reply

To all,

BTW, I am not recommending the LTC4446 since it consumes a lot of power as far as high-low side MOSFET drivers are concerned. I used it in my LTspice simulations because it’s the only high-low side MOSFET driver model I have for LTspice. Please find a high-low side MOSFET driver that consumes low power. Next time I come across a low power high-low side MOSFET driver, I’ll post it.

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